Mark introduces the topic by reading the definition and symptoms

As much as the guys believe it to be real, it’s also funny

Jim asks Mark what “Psychic pathology” means and he takes a shot

Jim shares his opinion about friends and family that seem to struggle with this

Jim talks about his mom. She exhibits physical manifestations

Mark thinks this physical reaction indicates a pretty severe condition

Jim calls it impulsive

Mark calls Trump insensitive and crass. He’s a fighter and not a politician

Mark talks about one friend who is very smart, but can’t remain objective when Trump’s name comes up

Both guys say they’ve never seen anything like it

Neither guy feels that he’s a bad guy. He’s not treated fairly in their opinion

Neither guy is interested in defending Trump

Mark says if you can’t talk about this guy without losing your shit…it’s likely some form of mental illness

Both guys are more interested in issues than personality

Jim shares another story about his mom and common ground. He also doesn’t tell people who he voted for

He also shares his daughter’s experience and some friends

Mark says people are more nuanced. Liking one issue doesn’t necessarily put you in any other groups, but people do assume and presume

Mark asked Jim’s opinion on what the political climate is like living in California

Mark shares his opinion on living in Florida

Mark shares his experience wearing a Trump shirt

Both guys are entertained by people with TDS

Jim says, in CA people take immediate positions. Red team or blue team

He shares his recent encounter with a woman who got emotional when she discovered Jim’s friend was a Trump guy. She mellowed a bit after getting into the discussion. She expressed pride in being an “American”

The woman brought up the pending law in Texas about hanging up the 10 Commandments in public schools

Jim’s position is against it and Mark disagrees

Mark shares his view of how nuanced this woman was after getting deeper into the discussion

People aren’t as obvious as they might seem to be

Both guys respect people with strong positions. That stand for something and have some humor and self deprecation. Jim has no time for the passive aggressive people who get lost in emotion. He seeks common ground

Mark reminds people that Trump behaves on purpose. It’s a strategy that people with TDS don’t even understand

Jim’s friend asked her where she was from and she dug into being an American

The discussion became more interesting after a few drinks

Mark cites this an another example of why we can’t assume things about people and their beliefs

Mark feels that Trump has repositioned the US as a strong nation

Jim explains the political landscape of different areas of CA. Red and blue areas

Jim voted more against the blue team than he did for the red team. He feels his vote didn’t matter, but he also believes in voting. His was a “protest” vote

The guys introduce the 10 Commandments topic that this woman asked about

Jim agreed with the woman. No religion in the school

Mark disagrees. He feels that the US was founded on Judeo Christian values so putting the Commandments in schools is OK. It’s different than teaching religion

Both guys add context to their positions. They agree to disagree go deeper into their respective positions

Mark shares the 10 Commandments and each guy gives his thoughts about each and some of the hypocrisy around sins

Mark feels like the TDS people hold Trump to a higher standard than others

Mark share the last 7 Commandments and suggests they would provide for a good life without the religious flavor

Mark feels that Christianity can’t be watered down

Mark shares his position on his faith and his awareness that other people might push their beliefs on others

He shares his opinion on Notre Dame’s celebration of Pride month and his response

He shares his response about the difference between “accepting” others and “promoting” others

Mark introduces the topic and frames it in the context of his recent experience with having a plumber show up at his home to do some work

He shares how gratitude plays a part in the discussion. He expresses a concern that the topic is so rich that staying on topic might be tough

Jim reflects on the story Mark has already told him

Jim expands on the “Showing up” concept

Jim shares his perspective having been a tradesman and having gone into many homes and being treated poorly, more often than not. He applauds Marks treatment of the plumber

Jim expands on the notion of appreciation and gives his opinion on how Mark’s behavior influenced the outcome

Jim emphasizes the importance of appreciation. Then he connects the topic to the wheel and the 5 areas of life

Mark shares the story. He felt vulnerable. The problem was he didn’t have water coming into his home. Mark tells his side about showing up too. He was very impressed with the plumber who showed up and shared all the details about what he liked about the experience.

Jim steps in and shared his perspective from being a tradesman as well. He emphasized how Marks behavior was unique. Mark jokes about some trade experiences with his ex wife. Jim resets the discussion as Mark gets distracted with the emotion of the experience. Mark shares more of the story. Jim continues to play the role of tradesman and adds more context and appreciation about how unique Mark’s experience actually was

Jim enthusiastically shares his view of Mark’s experience. Mark acknowledges his skepticism prior to arrival but also shares how he didn’t let his skepticism prejudge

Jim brings up the skilled labor “crisis” as another angle on this story and shares his opinion about that…strong feelings

Jim thinks the trades are at risk for a number of reasons. Then he brings up the race component of this. Jimmy was black and Jim speculates that other clients may disrespect him because of his race.

Mark jokes about the race topic. He also thinks people respond better to being treated well

Jim brings up the credit that he feels the home warranty company deserves too. Mark shares the history of deciding to take on the home warranty when bought the home in 2007 and how that relationship has evolved

Jim asks Mark to “write Jimmy’s review”. Mark shares what he’s already done and both guys talk about what else Mark could/should do for Jimmy.

Jim wants more details from Mark. Marks goes deeper about the whole experience

Mark brings back up the notion of modeling and reminds Jim to share his story about ending his own trade career. Why he stopped

Mark reminds us that all the great behavior is available to all of us. Anyone can behave well

Jim shares stories about his childhood, his dad and the phrase “I can’t” while raking leaves on a Saturday morning and going to the dump

Jim feels that experience shaped him

Mark had a similar experience with his dad

Jim then shares more about the evolution of his career and some other childhood formative moments….pay the electric bill or get your own place:)

Then Jim tells the story of ending his trade career and why. Girls, suits and meeting his wife

Mark starts to wrap up and says Jim’s dad was right…you can

Jim credits his dad for what he did - modeling - less about what he said

Mark says he takes offense at people who don’t show up…because it’s so easy

Jim tells Mark again how much he appreciate shim and Mark returns the praise

Mark introduces the topic of disingenuous people. Both guys have had recent experiences with people who were being disingenuous. Mark asks whether he thinks people are born this way or do become this way based on environment or circumstance.

Jim says he’s been using that word more often lately

Mark reads the legal definition of the word

Jim shares his definition. He clarifies the nuance of this activity being intentional

Mark says there are different levels of it, but that some people are just stupid

Jim shares his recent encounter with a disingenuous neighbor

Deception from the get go. Jim says this guy isn’t dumb…he’s just a dick

Mark shares something he used to tell his kids to help them get to the truth. “Look at what people do and then what they say. When those are the same, you’ll find truth”

Mark brings up his ex wife as an example

Then the guys bring up justice

Jim…”it’s not what you say, it’s what you do”.

His neighbor said, “I thought we were friends? Mark reacts aggressively to that behavior

Jim says this guy was many things…deceptive, delusional and dishonest. He took the high road even as this guy dug his hole deeper, but he did tell him “you might want to get back on your meds”

Mark loves that line

Jim decided to let the guy keep revealing himself, but he continued to hold him accountable

Mark thinks people who pretend to be dumb might be worse and he alludes to our current political landscape

Mark brings up the trend of not asking follow-up questions. Then the guys go to Trump as an example and talk about his behavior. Also the contrast between Biden and Trump. Mark recognizes that many people feel Trump is a liar. Mark calls him an embellisher. A master embellisher who does so with a very specific intention to move people

Mark says disingenuous people behave in 3 distinct ways. Raise their voice, change the topic or walkaway. People who are genuine will welcome follow-up questions

Jim shares more words that he looked up based on this experience

Cowards, clowns and characters

Both guys feel that there are a lot of cowards in the world. Jim asks him to read the definition of coward

Mark shares his frustration with people who are afraid to speak up about problems at work

Jim is a big fan of his AI tool - Gemini. They joke about “her”

Mark says Biden is also a clown. He reads the definition and they laugh about how clownish Biden is

Mark talks about doing nothing. Either not taking a stance or watching bad things happen and not interveneing

Jim talks about the Biden group and the lack of integrity

Jim asks Mark…how can you tell what the truth is

Mark brings up Bernie Sanders and gives him credit for speaking from the heart. He doesn’t use notes

Jim shares his thoughts about Kamala Harris and Mark replies with more Trump authenticity and how good he is at holding people accountable Both guys speak highly of Trumps cabinet members

Jim says “news does not get reported it gets created”. Jim shares a story about a high school football coach who got run out because of a bullshit race issue. When the reporters came, she couldn’t get anyone to bite on race…so they didn’t run the story. They spent all the time and money wasted because they couldn’t create the story they wanted

Mark shares how he watches both sides of the news every so often just to see how the left is distorting. He says this in the context of his girlfriend’s kids. They watch channels that distort facts

Characters - Mark reads the definition

Jim thinks the media is now full of characters. Putting on the show

Jim asks about justice. Will we get any. He has stopped waiting

Mark feels that he needs to leave this alone. It’s affecting his mental health

Jim believes in Karma

Mark brings up the topic of communication in the context of self talk and self reflection

Then he shares a framework Jim brought that he uses for communication. The triple A method

Assumptions/Agreement/Action

Mark is a fan

Jim brings up a favorite quote of his - “The most important conversation you’ll ever have is the conversation you have with yourself”…and that’s a crazy person

Mark shares his self talk routine

Jim - simply…you have to turn the channel

He shares how his mind works. He finds or creates tools to help him. That’s where this AAA framework came from. He uses it to make meetings and conversation brief and productive. He does it out of respect and courtesy. It encourages personal accountability

Jim jokes that everything he just said doesn’t apply to women:). Joking aside, both guys see big differences, but believe them to be compliments

Mark sees the conversation being about personal responsibility as they talk about Stoicism

Jim distinguishes between different types of conversations and different times in our lives

Clarity, transparency and efficiency are all served by the framework

Mark shares the saying on his t-shirt - “What do you mean by that?”

Mark shares his appreciation for frameworks…specifically Jim’s AAA framework

Mark says a lot of people don’t like to be held accountable

Jim shares a visual rendering of his framework and offers some explanation of how the framework works. Mark chimes in in agreement

Mark shares his experience with people who are scared to speak up. Most people don’t like candor and confrontation. It makes them afraid

Jim clarifies his opinion of women as being better than men at many things

Jim also clarifies that his framework is not for more personal conversations. It’s a business framework

Mark shares his story about taking meeting notes in his sales meeting. How 10 people handed in 10 different sets of notes

Jim thinks AI tools will help with this. Transcripts. Word for word. He explains how he might use them to bring in. His framework on command. Prompts and percentages of time that people talk during the conversation

Mark shares how he started handing out transcripts of meeting notes. He was surprised at how reticent people were to be held to what they said by the transcript

Mark shares his stories about how he handled this before AI

Jim clarifies that his framework is to be used before, during and after conversations. Not just before.

Then Jim brings up our wheel to add context to our topic. He has redone it for his use in an upcoming speech. And because we haven’t updated it in a while. He reflects on all the selfs…agent, respect…

Both guys express their appreciation for the wheel. Their framework

Jims goes over the wheel in detail

Mark shares his opinion that he changes the way he communicates depending on what life area he’s in

Mark goes into detail about the difference between how Jim’s brain works versus Mark.

Jim continues to analyze how the wheel works and gets into ideology and politics as well as other levels outward on the wheel. He goes into details about the profession category. The differences between employed people and self employed people. Whose money are we playing with. Not a criticism. An observation

Both guys share their father’s perspective on this

Mark shares the power of “WHY” and “WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT”

The value is in the follow up question. Clarity and context

Mark introduces the guys and topic. He cites how aligned both guys are. As they enter the call they’re thinking of the same topics and thoughts

Neurodivergence (See definition at the bottom of the show notes)

Mark shares a call about his grandson and his current struggles which may well involve him being on the spectrum

Jim shared his perspective about labels and crutches and his own story about being neurodivergent himself growing up

Jim’s perspective is to reframe this label as an opportunity to think of things differently

Neither guy likes meds, but do agree that in some cases they can be a Godsend

Jim tells a story about meeting his son’s fiancee’s family…one of who was neurodiverse. So many different degrees of the neurodivergent mind

Mark reads the definition that Jim provided (Version posted below)

Mark jokes that there is no normal and the definition sounds like the description of a teenager

Elon Musk comes up. Mark shares a recent interview he saw with Musk about Mars

Mark was amazed. Jim agrees

Jim talks about Dan Sullivan’s recent diagnosis in later age and how one of his clients benefits from doing work with him being a neurodiverse person - “Unique Abilities”

The importance of self-awareness and self acceptance

Mark shares his opinion on the value of self awareness as well as how unique people are. He also talks about the danger of labeling. Excuses, victimhood and manipulation. Both guys warn about the problems with victimhood. Mark thinks his grandson’s temptation might be the manipulation

Jim shares more about Dan Sullivan’s position about neurodivergence

Violence and anger are common traits of neurodiverse people who don’t get help

Mark looks at neurodivergence as simply another challenge to be overcome. Jim agrees that overcoming hardship affects everyone

Jim is very skeptical about academia and neurodiversity

Mark shares his best childhood’s condition and his older brother’s inability to stay focused

Jim says it’s been around forever. People just understand it better. He also clarifies that his challenge is dysgraphia. More than dyslexia. And how each condition affects how his brain works. He thinks AI will be a game changer for the neurodiverse

Mark shares the details of discussing his grandson with his other parents and relatives. Mark asks Jim’s opinion on all of this and his own journey

Jim mentions his efforts to develop his own brand and how his unique abilities are big part of this

Jim brings up fortitude - the ability to develop it in the face of hardship

He shares a few childhood stories about hardship and fortitude as a neurodiverse kid. The story about his dad and “I can’t” and some other school related stories. Being embarrassed about poor reading and comprehension in front of the other kids. How he beat up all the kids who made fun of him and how anger manifested itself. Jim’s football story speaks to the importance of a good mindset and proper mentality

Final story is about his first concussion and subsequent failure at community college

Essentially Jim is on a whole new journey with a new perspective on why he is who he is and how he’s accomplished what he has. Then he shares a story of how harmful comparison is

The whole conversation is very personal and enlightening

Mark frames the lessons…No labels, no victim behavior and no manipulation. No one is special and everyone is special. Mark thinks it’s very important and hopefully medicine is a last step

Jim shares the wisdom of life happening for you and not to you. Just show up and there’s no such thing as “I can’t”

-------------

"Neurodivergent refers to individuals whose brains function differently from what's considered typical or normative, encompassing a variety of conditions like autism, ADHD, and learning disabilities. It's a broad term that recognizes natural variation in how brains process information, rather than viewing such differences as deficits."

Mark shares the value of the “pregame” the guys use to prepare for the podcast

He introduces the topic of frameworks

How they can be good or harmful

Jim shares how frameworks evolve and how ours did. Our tagline “The Imperfection Is The Perfection”

Jim used this with his kids when they got frustrated with him

He thinks imperfections and failures make us who we are

Jim shares how when we started the podcast, we were thinking of “Civill Discourse” as a theme. Then we came upon our Wheel Of Life

Jim takes us around the wheel and digs into all 5 areas of life and then some deeper topics in each area. It’s our framework and it’s very helpful in keeping us on topic and consistent. That’s what good frameworks do

Jim adds that we spend a good bit of time in the center of our wheel “the self”…and all the value that comes from “self” exercises (awareness, reflection, talk…)

Jim talks about how he uses our framework in all walks of life. He thinks AI will only make frameworks more important

Mark shares his journey with frameworks. How structure is something humans need. He used to resist them and now leans on them hard. He thinks they help with clarity, resonance, consistency and credibility

Structure and order alone make frameworks valuable

Jim mentions context and calibration in the context of frameworks. He also mentions alignment

Jim talks about how helpful frameworks are with his dyslexia. He appreciates how we both compliment each other Mark shares how different both guys are and how productive it makes us. He talks about the ups and downs of “structure”. They can be helpful but also restrictive

Mark and Jim both appreciate the pushback and combined experience working together for so long

Mark thinks he is basically an opponent of “rules” and talks about how rules stay the same even when things change. Mark gets heated about his opposition to rules just for the sake of rules

Jim agrees and cites some examples of things being “out of date”

Jim brings up SWOT and SOARS as frameworks. He prefers a focus on positives only. Strengths, opportunities, aspirations…

What does success look like - manifest that

Mark likes the optimism of the SOARS acronym

Mark talks about guys and what guys feel comfortable talking about

Where can men go to talk about shit - The Imperfect Mens Club baby!

Mark feels like Jim’s SOARS acronym supports what we’re doling here at IMC

Jim sees how Mark uses frameworks every day in everything he does professionally

Jim digs a bit deeper into he idea that things change and frameworks need to change and clarity is critical. Adjustments to frameworks keeps them fresh

The guys talk more about the evolution of the podcast based on investigation and changes

Mark now uses frameworks for many practices during his day. Faith, work, family, exercise…

Jim reflects on what happens when we focus on only one area and neglect the others. Life get imbalanced

Mark reflects on Jim’s story about the wealthy woman who had no gratitude…not appreciation…no context. Politics took her down a one way street

Mark lets the audience know what they can get from the guys and their frameworks. Practical experience coupled with trusted frameworks