Jeff and Phil welcome back Shin Yu Pai to talk about the latest season of her podcast Ten Thousand Things, along with fellow podcaster Yowei Shaw (Proxy, NPR's Invisibilia), to talk about the objects that help us move forward -- like a gold star trophy. They talk about how layoffs can be like breakups that unravel your sense of identity, purpose, and self-worth; finding healing and reinvention in the wake of professional setbacks; and The Good, The Bad, and The WTF of going independent. Also: keep listening to hear a full episode of Ten Thousand Things.

Jeff and Phil welcome Michael Luo, executive editor at The New Yorker and author of the book Strangers in the Land: Exclusion, Belonging, and the Epic Story of the Chinese in America, a sweeping narrative history of the Chinese in America, and their more than century-long struggle to belong in the face of bigotry, persecution, exclusion and racial terror. Michael talks about the real-life racist incident that partially inspired the project; the complexities and quirks of Chinese American immigration history; some of the fascinating stories and characters he uncovered during his research for Strangers in the Land; and the alarming parallels between past and current debates on immigration, citizenship, and our multiracial democracy.

Jeff and Phil welcome Dolly Li, documentary filmmaker, journalist and cultural consultant on Ryan Coogler's epic vampire blockbuster Sinners. They discuss Dolly's documentary on The Untold Story of America's Southern Chinese, and the deep-rooted origins of the Mississippi Delta's Chinese American community; how Ryan Coogler's own family connection to the Delta Chinese inspired the Chinese characters in Sinners; and how Dolly worked with the filmmakers to make the movie historically accurate and authentic as possible -- right down to that one horny line of Chinese dialogue. And of course, they offer their own hot takes on Sinners.