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This conversation reflects on the urgent need for genuine transformation in the church, rather than simply tweaking what isn’t working. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the signs that point to deeper issues—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnating giving—and why now is the time for a true “hero’s journey” of change, not just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rex Miller in Ep. 254: Digital Disruption and the Future of the Church:

"There are some telltale signs that it's time to go on a hero's journey. One telltale sign is we're plateauing in our membership. Or our members are getting older. Or our giving is plateauing. Now is not the time to try to rearrange the chairs on the Titanic.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Church leaders recognize critical signs—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnant giving—that indicate the need for deep transformation.
• Leaders create only superficial change when they settle for “rearranging the chairs on the Titanic” instead of tackling the root issues.
• Effective leadership requires admitting when you don’t know what to do and being willing to learn all over again.
• Leaders lose key, healthy members when they make ministry primarily about themselves rather than about something greater.
• Transformation happens when leaders embrace adaptive change, let go of their expertise, and journey into new ways of leading.

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Shalom is a biblical concept that goes far beyond our usual understanding of “peace.” It’s about healing, fulfillment, and every part of life coming together as God intended. For ministry leaders, this vision of shalom changes everything about how we lead, serve, and even think about the mission of the church.

In this episode, Terry A. Smith, author of The Lord Give You Peace, explores what shalom really means, why it’s at the heart of God’s mission, and how we as ministry leaders can become bringers of Shalom in and beyond our churches.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson invites Terry A. Smith to share how the concept of shalom became important in his life and faith.
• Terry A. Smith explains that encountering Tim Keller’s writing helped him see shalom as the way God intended things to be.
• Shalom means more than just "peace"—it encompasses wholeness, flourishing, harmony, prosperity, and well-being.
• Terry A. Smith describes shalom as holistic well-being, productive flourishing, and happy fulfillment.
• Shalom involves every dimension of life: psychological, spiritual, physical, and relational wellness.
• Flourishing in shalom is not passive but should lead to positive, productive fruit in the world.
• Fulfillment includes experiencing deep happiness and contentment rooted in hope and connection with God.
• Markus Watson reflects that God’s mission for Creation is to restore shalom on every level—between humans and God, with each other, within ourselves, and with creation.
• Terry A. Smith affirms that the presence of brokenness and lack of shalom is due to the fall and the "vandalization" of God’s intentions.
• People can still taste and participate in shalom, even while living in a broken world.
• Terry A. Smith highlights that many biblical promises of shalom are directed at people in exile or less-than-ideal circumstances, encouraging hope and action.
• The church’s calling includes being a model of unity and peace, creating opportunities for shalom in relationships and community.
• Terry A. Smith describes his church’s intentional pursuit of diversity, unity, and partnership with local organizations as active shalom-making.
• Creating an environment of hospitable leadership fosters a culture where people and their God-given dreams flourish.
• Leaders who embody shalom can better guide others through change, adversity, and growth by bringing wholeness and well-being into every situation.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Website – terryasmith.com
• The Life Christian Church
• Books mentioned:
  • The Lord Give You Peace, by Terry A. Smith
  • Not the Way It’s Supposed to Be, by Cornelius Plantinga, Jr.
  • The Hospitable Leader, by Terry A. Smith
• Related episodes:
  • 134. How to Help Your City Thrive, with Amy Sherman
  • 140. Bathed in Grace, with Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke
  • 157. Seamless Leadership, with Steve Garber

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This episode explores the critical role awareness plays in avoiding burnout and fostering healthy leadership practices. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss personal anecdotes and practical strategies to cultivate awareness, so we can better navigate the challenges that come our way. Whether you're leading a team or just trying to lead a more intentional life, this conversation is packed with insights to help you break free from autopilot mode and make mindful adjustments for a more effective and fulfilling leadership journey.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jonathan Hoover in Ep. 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion:

“Awareness is a precursor to adjustment.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Awareness aids leaders in recognizing when they approach burnout.
• Well-trained leaders naturally navigate crises using second nature skills.
• Developing awareness prompts leaders to stop, assess shifts, and adjust effectively.
• Noticing emotions or bodily sensations signals leaders to pause and reflect.
• Naming issues in a room empowers leaders to identify and implement adjustments.

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Is the future of the church something to look forward to, or does it scare you to death. Thriving into the future will require change, and the idea of changing the way we lead, or the way we do church, or the people we reach out to, can feel overwhelming. Even if we want to do it, where do we even start?

In this episode, Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang share insights from their new book, Future Focused Church, where they explore adaptive leadership and offer practical tools to help ministry leaders guide their congregations through meaningful transformation.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Kara Powell asserts that the best days of the church are ahead despite current challenges.
• Kara Powell credits her optimism for the church’s future to her theology and understanding of God’s goodness.
• Church leaders should focus on the three checkpoints: relationally discipling young people, modeling kingdom diversity, and tangibly loving their neighbors.
• Jake Mulder explains the concept of a journey in church change, emphasizing the importance of checkpoints along the way.
• Jake Mulder lists the four zones of church change as here, there, who, and how.
• Jake Mulder states that a majority of change efforts fail due to outdated approaches and skills.
• Transformation in the church should not be a solo effort and requires a diverse transformation team, as Jake Mulder explains.
• Raymond Chang highlights how experimenting from the edges with small changes can lead to progress without being too disruptive.
• Churches often suffer from a lack of follow-through rather than a dramatic flaw when trying to implement change.
• Raymond Chang highlights the sons of Issachar as an example of understanding the times and discerning God’s direction.
• Maintaining disciplined attention is crucial, as Kara Powell emphasizes, to ensure cultural change efforts do not falter.
• Jake Mulder shares the importance of a diverse transformation team of five to twelve people representing different perspectives for effective guidance in church change.
• Jake Mulder notes that the process of church change is not about where leaders want to go, but where God is leading.
• The journey between a church’s current state and its future should begin with gathering the right team of people.
• Kara Powell shares an example where a church emphasizes youth engagement through consistent, simple actions like attending youth events.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Future-Focused Church website
• Books mentioned:
  • Future-Focused Church, by Kara Powel, Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang
• Related episodes:
  • 222. Building a Multi-Inclusive Church, with Efrem Smith and Dan Kreiss
  • 242. Life and Leadership in the Fog, with Michaela O’Donnell and Lisa Slayton
  • 256. Digital Disruption

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss insights on the importance of developing leaders who are skilled in curious listening and creating a collaborative environment where ideas are shared and valued. The conversation uncovers how shifting from monologue to dialogue can not only empower communities but also lead to more meaningful adaptive leadership in times of change.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot McKnight in Ep 250, The Prophetic Challenge of Deconstruction:

“The evangelical world does not have a culture of conversation.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders improve their effectiveness by first listening before proclaiming.
• Sharing leadership with a team fosters better decision-making through collaboration.
• Engaging in conversations helps leaders adapt to situations without clear solutions.
• Encouraging conversations empowers groups by promoting shared ownership.
• Feeling heard validates individuals and supports their faith journey.

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In his newest book, Chuck DeGroat offers a deeply personal account of his journey of being fired from a ministry position and the stress surrounding that experience that ultimately led to a life-changing health crisis. But it was that crisis that showed him the much deeper inner healing he needed.

In this episode, Chuck DeGroat discusses not only his experience of deep inner healing, but also the need for inner healing for all of us who are ministry leaders.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Chuck DeGroat highlights his experience with the autonomic nervous system and its role in managing past trauma, indicating how unresolved trauma can manifest in physical and emotional symptoms.
• Engaging with our bodies helps reveal unaddressed shame and grief, which many individuals, including pastors, tend to bury.
• Chuck DeGroat shares his story of being fired from a church, leading him to recognize the necessity of inner reflection and healing for effective ministry leadership.
• Neglecting emotional health often leads to physical symptoms, illustrating the body's way of signaling unresolved emotional turmoil.
• Chuck DeGroat describes his journey from placing blame externally to focusing on internal work, which allows for more authentic healing.
• Constant activation of the sympathetic nervous system can have detrimental effects on one's health, indicating the importance of addressing stress and trauma.
• Chuck DeGroat encourages pastors and leaders to engage in regular practices that foster a calm and centered emotional state, aiding in spiritual insight and leadership.
• Successful healing involves consistently attending to emotional and physical cues from our bodies, signaling deeper underlying issues.
• Chuck DeGroat explains practices that help individuals transition from a survival mindset to a state of calm connection, enhancing overall well-being.
• Regular and intentional understanding of our body's signals is crucial for maintaining emotional health and preventing future burnout.
• Addiction often serves as an attempted solution to address deeper inner wounds, which requires a more nuanced understanding in the context of spiritual counseling.
• Chuck DeGroat discusses the value of acknowledging and understanding one's inner child to achieve authenticity and awareness in spiritual leadership.
• Differentiating between various parts of oneself allows for a clearer understanding of internal struggles and promotes healthier decisions.
• Effective spiritual and emotional growth requires addressing core issues beyond behavior, thereby promoting sustainable change and authentic leadership.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Chuck DeGroat
• Western Theological Seminary
• Books mentioned:
  • Healing What’s Within, by Chuck DeGroat
  • When Narcissism Comes to Church, by Chuck DeGroat
• Related episodes:
  • 82. Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat
  • 206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins
  • 254. Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion, with Jonathan Hoover

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore Mandy Smith's powerful words on combating darkness and feelings of futility in leadership. Tod reflects on his own struggles with imposter syndrome and insecurity, highlighting the need for honesty and spiritual practices to overcome these challenges.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mandy Smith in Ep 244, Finding Strength in Desperation:

“Every week I have to stand up there and press against this darkness that wants us to be quiet. And wants to come against us and disrupt our sleep; and disrupt our sense of well-being; and tell us that nothing we do makes any difference.”


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Spiritual leaders must acknowledge and resist darkness that seeks to undermine their efforts and well-being.
• Tod Bolsinger shares that addressing insecurities and imposter syndrome builds resilience in ministry.
• Church leaders should recognize that leadership is about serving and pointing to Jesus, not about personal validation.
• Adopting a Jewish perspective on the Sabbath, Tod practices trust in God by resting, demonstrating faith in God’s control.
• Addressing self-doubt and learning to trust in divine purpose helps leaders mitigate anxiety and retain their focus on meaningful service.

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Matt Colwell, Senior Pastor at Knox Presbyterian Church in Pasadena, California, shares his raw, personal journey of losing his home to the Eaton Fire in Altadena and how he has continued to shepherd a congregation facing the same devastating loss. This conversation unpacks the layers of adaptive leadership in the midst of crisis, the importance of building community before the crisis happens, and the powerful ways we can discover God's presence and provision when life goes off the rails.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Matt Colwell shares his experience of losing his home in the Los Angeles Eaton Fire and navigating the aftermath.
• The fire in Altadena caused widespread destruction, with only one house surviving in Matt Colwell's neighborhood.
• Matt Colwell narrates the sequence of events during the fire evacuation, detailing his family's actions and decisions.
• Matt Colwell explains the mixed emotions of shock and disbelief, and how it unfolded as he processed the loss.
• The unexpected loss of a home can be overwhelming as individuals process the emotional and logistical aspects.
• Matt Colwell expresses the challenges of balancing personal recovery with pastoral responsibilities.
• As a pastor, losing a home can provide unique empathy and understanding when caring for others experiencing loss.
• The power of community and compassion plays a significant role in Matt Colwell's healing process after the fire.
• Preaching shortly after a personal crisis can be both healing and hopeful, as experienced by Matt Colwell.
• Leading adaptively requires recognizing and focusing on core values while responding to rapid changes.
• Matt Colwell emphasizes the ongoing challenge and necessity of long-term rebuilding and recovery efforts.
• The impact of climate change on the frequency and severity of natural disasters is a critical issue to address.
• Adaptive leadership in crisis involves leveraging support networks, personal resilience, and spiritual practices to navigate and recover from challenges.
• Establishing and maintaining community connections proves invaluable when dealing with large-scale crises.
• Matt Colwell discusses the collaboration with his neighborhood to support collective recovery and rebuilding efforts.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Knox Presbyterian Church
• Presbyterian Disaster Assistance
• Creation Justice Ministries
• On Mission Network
• Related episodes:
  • 220. Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis, with Gayle Beebe
  • 242. Life and Leadership in the Fog, with Michaela O’Donnell and Lisa Slayton
  • 244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy Smith

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.