What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul?

In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership.

Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling.

If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home.

Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go.

This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom.

• What most leaders miss about the difference between calling and identity
• Why burnout isn’t always loud - and how to recognize it early
• The real cost of avoiding your own growth
• How to lead with clarity when the crowd is gone
• What “editing your life” looks like in a post-ministry season

00:00 – Jon’s early ministry story 06:12 – From platform to pressure: the silent drift 14:45 – Burnout and the addiction to being needed 21:08 – Risk, honesty, and what it really means to lead well 29:17 – How Forte walks with leaders in transition 36:30 – Wrestling with faith after leaving ministry 41:40 – Final thoughts: courage over comfort

If you’re facing a leadership shift, you don’t have to do it alone. Start a conversation at ministrytransitions.com.

Follow Jon Talbert on LinkedIn

Learn more about his work at getforte.com

And explore their support for faith leaders at getforte.com/faith

Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion.

Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion.

But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous.

In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.

He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything.

Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline.

• Burnout doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a slow fade, and most leaders don’t see it coming until they’re in crisis.
• Control is an illusion. Whether it’s holding onto leadership or refusing to step away, the tighter your grip, the heavier the burden.
• Interruption is a choice - disruption is a consequence. If you don’t make space for rest, your body, mind, or ministry will force the issue.
• A sabbatical isn’t selfish - it’s survival. Leaders who take time to step away don’t weaken their ministries - they strengthen them.
• The church must do better. If you're a board member or elder, don’t wait for your pastor to break - give them space to breathe.

• [00:10] - Welcome & Bill Simmons’ Story: From Missionary Kid to CEO
• [03:14] - Held at Gunpoint - What a Child Soldier Taught Me About Control
• [06:25] - The Burnout Epidemic: Why 8.5/10 Leaders Are Near Collapse
• [09:55] - The Moment Everything Broke - And Why Bill Took a Sabbatical
• [14:44] - Shabbat, Ceasing, & The Myth of Rest
• [19:09] - The Power of Pause, Psalm, and Prayer
• [24:59] - Leaders Don’t Have to Manufacture Spiritual Life - Just Make Space
• [28:41] - Interruption vs. Disruption: What Happens When You Ignore the Signs
• [32:11] - How to Sabbath Without Making It Just Another Task
• [36:46] - The Way of Interruption - Bill’s Book & Why It Matters

The weight of leadership isn’t yours to carry alone.

• Read Bill Simmons’ book, The Way of Interruption, and learn how to embrace spiritual pause before burnout takes over. Order your copy now: Get the book here
• Need help navigating a transition? Whether you're stepping away from ministry or trying to find a healthier rhythm, Pastoral Transitions can help. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.

Matthew had been hiding a secret for years. A secret that was growing, festering, and slowly creating a wedge in his marriage.

He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding.

In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned.

What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified?

In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling.

If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you.

• Secrets don’t stay buried. What you hide will always rise to the surface - usually when you least expect it.
• Your struggle doesn’t disqualify you. But ignoring it might.
• Healing is possible - but only if you face the truth. Matthew’s addiction nearly destroyed his marriage, but confession opened the door to redemption.
• Ministry should not cost you your soul. Leaders are burning out, hiding struggles, and suffering in silence. It’s time for a better way.

[00:10] - Introducing Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith [01:15] - Falling in Love & Stepping into Ministry [02:08] - The Secret That Changed Everything [07:18] - The Moment of Truth: When Joanna Asked the Hard Question [09:15] - Can You Still Be in Ministry After Failing? [14:51] - Pastors in Crisis: Why Leaders Feel Stuck [18:30] - The Weight of Hidden Struggles & The Road to Freedom [21:27] - Creating a Culture Where Leaders Can Heal [26:08] - What Churches Get Wrong About Redemption [29:08] - Finding New Purpose After Ministry

If you or someone you know is struggling in ministry, you are not alone. There is a way forward. There is life after ministry.

Get resources and connect with Matthew & Joanna at https://raabsmithteam.com/free

Connect with us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/

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